The Impact of Family Support - with Laurel Chaison

On this episode of Airing Addiction:

Laurel Chaison shares her firsthand experience of loving someone through addiction, and the impact it has on families. She hopes her story and experience can help reduce stigma, encourage honest conversations, and remind other families that healing and hope are possible.

Join Jesse and Lisa to hear Laurel's inspiring story, only on Airing Addiction!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:07

I share off the journey started off so Brad. If you really did phenomenal change. I see situations that on the surface.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Be honest about what the challenges are and have some real conversations.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Hello everyone. Welcome to this really exciting and kind of unique episode of Airing Addiction. So I'm Lisa Blanchard. It is July. If you are watching or listening live or close to it, the tail end of July. And July is often a time, right, in the summer months where we take time off to be with our loved ones and our family. And I think that is a really great opportunity for us to talk about family and relationships in marriage in the context of addiction recovery. And so with that, I'm going to turn it over to Jesse to introduce our very special guest today.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Thanks so much, Lisa. Yeah, uh, it's a real honor and a privilege. I say all the time that I'm excited to have guests on, and I truly do mean it because I really do love this. I never thought that I'd be co-hosting a podcast uh in recovery for the place I work at. Um, but this really is by far my favorite guest we've ever had. Because uh Laurel is a mother, she's an awesome baker, she's a very caring and loving person. Um, and we've been married for over 11 years and have known each other for over 25 years. So she's been through it all the good, bad, and the ugly, has her own experience with addiction and recovery, certainly has been a huge support of mine over the years. Um yeah, so without further ado, Laurel's gonna share a little bit of her story. And thank you so much for doing this.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

Thank you. Thank you, Jesse. Thank you, Lisa. Um, so I'm a little nervous. So if I'm kind of bouncing all over the place, that's fine. Um, so my name is Laurel Chaseon. Um, I like Jesse said, we will be married 12 years on Sunday. Okay. Um, we actually, it's July. So we met 25 years ago in July 2001, um, at a summer camp and started dating in September of 2001. And back then I was just like, oh, nice boy. We were 14, 15. Um, first boyfriend. Um, we my family, we all we liked each other. We hung out with our our families, everybody got along, everything was fine. I did not know then what I know now. Like I didn't know what he was into and his background. I didn't know he was already drinking. I didn't know these things. I was just this innocent girl. You know, I I was introduced to a completely different lifestyle, um, eventually. Um I um and I supported it because I was so in love and I was fine with, you know, oh yeah, he's drunk, whatever. Um, I would drink with him, not um to the excess that he would, but um, I supported him. It was like teenage love. Um, I will say, looking back now as a teenager, I was very um I became very rebellious, a completely different version of myself that I was before I met him. Um my parents were, you know, for very good reason, not happy with some of the decisions I was making and the my behaviors. And I look back now, now that I'm a parent, and I can see why they were so strict and didn't want me, you know, eventually wanted me to stop hanging out with him, you know, and and the people he was hanging out with. And I rebelled, I didn't care. I was really um awful to my family at times um because I was so obsessed with him. Um and you know, I my parents are my mom is probably watching, so it's now she knows. Like I I understand now. I think she knows, and she knows. Um, I saw uh let's see, Jesse basically introduced me to alcohol, introduced me to um weed. Uh, I never did anything more than that. I was uh too afraid. That was, you know, I was brought up in what you'd say a normal household. And I knew, you know, what was right and what was wrong. He did too, but he just didn't listen. Um not saying he didn't have a good child. He did he knew what was right and what was wrong, but he he rebelled. Um and I I just became like this whole other person um growing up. It it my high school, I did not have a good experience. Um, you know, the last two years of my high school was just rough. Um, didn't have many friends, um, gotten a lot of fights, just you know, going out at night and saying that I was, you know, with someone, you know, with a friend when I really wasn't, or you know, I'm not gonna get into too much detail with that because yeah, there's just stuff that I just don't need, you know, need to reveal to my parents.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

And it's just we're just gonna leave it at that. I mean, I d as a parent now, I I say now that when my kids are when our kids are older, like I I'm gonna know if you're lying.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

Like I was there once. I I'm gonna know at least now what to look for. Like I I know they're not gonna get away with it uh like I did, I hope. Um I come from the there's addiction, you know, for in extended family. And I think that that that affected me because I I learned that I was um addicted to gambling. Um my experience with addiction was not alcohol or drugs, it was scratch tickets. Um, I was brought to the casino for my 21st birthday, and that was my first taste of gambling. And I know that you guys usually talk about drugs and alcohol, but this is I'm just gonna give you a taste into the gambling aspect of it because there is a program called GA, which is Gamblers Anonymous. Um, and I am a recovering um compulsive gambler, and I am about two and a half years um into not gambling, not doing scratch tickets. Um, but we were in active addiction together. He would we'd be drinking, he'd be drinking and smoking, and we would stop at the store and just get like, you know, the the rolls of scratch tickets and just sit there and you know, the money we'd go and spend some more on scratch tickets and some more on booze and wheat. And that was just like our thing. Um, we we stole, we just made all the wrong choices. I hurt people that I love. Um, he hurt people that he loved, including me, even though I was still there. Like I was such, I was the worst example of an enabler. You know, you back then I was like, oh no, he's you know, he's a great, but he's a great guy. And it's if you're in a relationship with somebody who's an addict, it is so, so hard to just back off and realize when to walk away. Um, I did not want to walk away. I didn't want to leave him. I didn't want to think of, you know, I I more so worried it wasn't like, oh, is he gonna go, you know, be with someone else? It's more of, oh my gosh, is he gonna get hurt? Is he gonna do something to hurt somebody or himself? Um he did have those moments. I had gotten those phone calls where, you know, I we we tried to break up and I tried to step away. And then it was like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna die. And it and I'd be great, I'd get sucked right back in because I didn't want him to get hurt. Um, I had my first experience with visiting jails with him. I never thought I'd visit a jail. Like I would never, like before I met him, I what? I'm gonna go to a jail. It was really awkward, it was really weird, it's kind of scary because you just see how they are um on the inside. And he did that a few times. And the last time that he did that was in 2009. And um I, you know, I didn't know where he he went out to do his thing and he didn't come back. And I finally got a phone call in the middle of the night. And he's like, I'm at I'm at the police station. Okay, well, I'll come get you. What's your bill? And I'm like, no, there's no bail, I'm not getting out this time, and that was it. That's when he got forced into recovery, basically. I say that's when he got forced into sobriety. Um that was over 16 years ago, um, which is amazing. I mean, I'm I couldn't be more proud, honestly. I I will say that our story is, you know, has a happy ending. I'm not gonna sit here and say that, you know, if you stay and you support your addict and you enable and whatever, that you will get your happy ending. More often than not, it's not a happy ending. Um, I just got very, very lucky and blessed to be able to sit here and see the transformation happen in real time, um, which honestly has been frustrating and an honor in itself. I mean, I just I like to say every time he gets another degree, okay, because we all know that we all know it was an associate's, then it was a bachelor's, and then it was a master's, and we all know he wants his PhD. And every time he gets a degree, I like to joke and say with him, like, he used to be such an a-hole. I don't want to swear, used to be such a and it's just like he was he was, he was an asshole. It he was like, What? I can't, I you know, I look at the old pictures of us and I'm like, oh my gosh, he was such a punk. You know, I I will say my mom was probably almost as much of an enabler as me. She is such she was such a caring, she is such a caring woman and just wanted to help, always wanted to help, you know. Um, my other family, you know, my dad and my brother wanted nothing to do with him. Rightfully so. They were very protective of me and they just did not want um him near me. I mean, there were many instances where like he almost fought my dad. Like he, my dad did not want him, and and that's I know that he would do that. If our daughters came home with someone like he was, he would be the first to be like, get out of my house. Um, but today, like we have such a good relationship, and it's still so crazy to see like getting married, having three kids, you know, just seeing the relationship that him and my dad and my brother have my obviously my mom and my mom was there in real time too to see the changes and just still we can't believe it to this day. Um, it's very, very, I mean, hard isn't even the word. There is no word to describe what it feels like to have to like sit with this and put up with it and just be in this. I was just like mind, I don't even know. Mind, yeah, I don't want to like say it, but like I was messed up clearly, because I was still supporting somebody who was in, you know, actively just throwing his life away. I should I feel like people are like, why you you know, you see the comments on Facebook and stuff like that. Well, leave him, you know, people complaining and saying, you know, my boyfriend is drinking and he's being such a jerk and you need to leave him. It's never gonna he's never gonna change. And I just sit there and look at that. Like, I can't respond to this because that I should have left. I should have left multiple times, but I didn't. And I just got very lucky that you know, thank you to the policeman who who arrested him that night because they forced him to make a change. And, you know, with yeah, I was in and out of GA, and I know he had never heard of well, he had heard of AA, but he had never been to AA before um uh his last time in jail. But like my addiction, same thing, back and forth, back and forth. Um, you know, I just wanted the quick fix and I wanted a quick couple bucks and would spend my last I would scrounge up change, I would steal from family and even just quarters go and be able to get a $2 scratch ticket and pray that I would win, you know, a hundred bucks or something. Um, and then that would go to him for his food or his jail canteen. I would go and I would steal to give jail canteen. That like I was like the worst enabler ever. I turned into like a female version of him as far as like the stealing and whatnot goes to just be able to help him, you know, be comfy in jail, which no, I shouldn't have helped at all. I should have made him sit there and suffer. But I the enabling continued through jail until he found Spectrum.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

And again, that was that was me and my craziness calling Spectrum and being like, hello, he needs a bed, get him in.

SPEAKER_04 13:24

Like I harassed Spectrum to get him in, and he did, and he got in. And even then, I was when you got dropped on and Kathy was like, No, you can't see him yet.

SPEAKER_03 13:34

I'm like, What the hell?

SPEAKER_04 13:35

I can't let me in. Like, I haven't like hugged him in forever. Um, and yeah, you just like the spectrum is I am forever grateful to Spectrum. Um like I I I mean they helped they helped you so much. You're able to get your own place and get your get wall job. And then I remember when he was working for Jeremiah's inn and came home and said that Spectrum had offered him a job. And he started crying because he was like, I like what? I'm gonna go work for the place that saved my life. And you've been with them since. And it's just I remember that being like, go take it. Like, why are you even asking me if you should take it? Take it. And it's been the best thing to happen. And it's just uh the people that we've met, the friends that we've made. I mean, if anybody, I've seen people, we still to this day have people say, Oh, you go to the AA thing, like you need me and you know, just no, like AA, the people that we've met, the lifelong friends that we've made, the people that we've lost, we've seen who didn't, you know, stick with the program and didn't and just went back out there, and we've lost a lot of friends. Never thought at my age that I would like go to that many like wakes, or you know, it it's really that's that's another like whole other side of life I thought I'd never see. But being married to somebody who is in program, you see these things, you hear these things. Um, but I will say grateful to Spectrum, grateful to AA because like she's I mean, I mean, I know the steps because of GA, but like he's like, I call him Mr. AA because like he's the people that he's even helping. I we have lifelong friends now that he's been helping that like are here because of him and I like to say and God, but you know, whoever your higher power is. But you know, people roll their eyes and say, well, the AA thing. No, if you've been thinking about going to an AA meeting, go. Nobody's gonna force you to talk. You can sit in the back row with your head down and just listen. All you need is your ears and the desire to stop drinking. Um, that's all I can say is people, whatever addiction you have, there is an anonymous program for it. It's you even if it's just online. Like the GA meetings are online for me because there's not many locally. So it's easy for me to jump onto a Zoom and just listen. I don't even have to put my camera on. I can just be quiet and listen if I want if I need to. Um, but AA is everywhere. There's like you can find a meeting anywhere. A A N A. I mean, so I mean, all I can say there's just I could talk all day about the experiences and the things that have that have happened to us. But from from the other side of things, I I can't sit here and be like, I it's hard for me to tell somebody to walk away and leave their addict. I can say if there, if if there's abuse, you gotta you gotta step back. I'm not saying that that you I don't want to promote abuse. I don't want to say, you know, we're an anomaly. We have to say we're an anomaly because like things could have been much worse. But I was a teenager and I didn't know anybody and I stuck by. Um, I don't know. I I I think he'd be dead today if I had walked away and never turned back. And I don't think it would have been because of me. I think it would have been because of his addictions. I I don't think no one else was supporting him, even in active addiction. I was supporting him, but nobody else was there for him. His friends didn't care. His friends, they weren't really his friends. Um, so I can't, you know, I could sit here and say, if you if you have uh an addict, if you're in a relationship with an addict or you're married to an addict, seek the help. You don't have to immediately run away, but go to someone and go to an AA meeting yourself and say, you know, hey, I think people can do that. I think a spouse can walk into an AA meeting and say, My spouse needs help. I don't know what to do, help me. And they'll give you information, you know. And I'm sure they could even jump onto an AA Zoom meeting and just listen. But they need to know that somebody's there. So there are people just like them that care, that are going, have been where they are, and nothing will surprise them. So, I mean, that's all I can say is just get what get the help. And recovery is so possible. Like, this is and he doesn't like when I say, Oh, you're about to be so many years sober, blah blah blah. But like, yeah, on the 11th hill of 17 years sober, and that's insane.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

That's like so I I have 16 right now.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

One day at a time, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Something asked me.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

It was hard for me to bite my tongue. Uh, because it was a great job, Jesse. That it brought up and I I wanted to reflect on, and and I I guess I'll just go here first that you know um it it brought me back, it brought me back to those years of just like my mindset was completely different. It was so selfish, it was so self-centered, it was so much about just what I wanted to get and just use people for a means to an end. And yeah, Laurel's right, you know, she got introduced to a world that you know she wasn't really aware of, and you know, her mom as well. Like, you know, I I think of her mom. Um, you know, you guys are the only two that showed up to my spectrum graduation. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

And um just all the all the history there. And um, yeah, yeah, forever grateful. And um yeah, I don't know. You can ask the first question, Lisa.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Okay, so I I um you know, I think it's we we talked a lot about kind of what that um path, which we know Jesse's story. If folks haven't listened, Jesse shares his entire story on his own podcast before he was the co-host. And so, you know, you can we can certainly try to link that and folks can listen to to Jesse's perspective on that. But I think it was really um helpful to hear your perspective, Laurel. And so I want to stick with a minute, like what that was like going through that piece. And then I'd love to talk a little bit more about your own recovery experience. And then I'd love to talk about kind of the shared recovery and what it's like to support each other in recovery, right? In long-term recovery. So I think those are kind of the phases I'd like to go a bit through, if that's okay with you, Jesse. But a couple of things. One, I just want to start off with um just a moment um to ask you to give yourself a little more self-compassion, Laurel. Um, you know, and I think we all need that. So, you know, Jesse being now one of our trainers and facilitators of our fast magnolia groups, but we've had Maureen Kavanaugh on a couple of times. And, you know, I think when you were talking about your own experience and like how you would behave and how it would mirror, you know, Jesse's behavior and like, how could you do this? And like, you know, yes, there's some of that rebellious teen and our brains aren't developed, and all of that is true. And the other parts are true is that um we we've learned, and Maureen introduced us to some of this science, that the loved ones that are supporting someone or trying to support someone, the impact on their brain, right? It's really very similar to the impact on our brains from trauma. Um, but that impact on our brains really starts to match what's happening for our loved one, right? So urges and cravings to make sure they're okay, urges and cravings to make sure he was just a little more comfortable in jail, right? Like you can sleep tonight if he has enough in his canteen, like, you know, like that, like that. We really uh mirror that. And that's real kind of brain science, you know, wired for the reasons why we need each other, right? So, so there's uh just a lot of um compassion for you in that process and for anyone listening that has been through something similar or is going through it right now. Um, there's nothing wrong with you. It makes sense that this is hard. It makes sense that you're doing this roller coaster ride yourself. Um, so I think you, but I think you described it um really, really well. And you know, I'd I'd be interesting to think a little bit about um what that impact of kind of walking that path with Jesse was on actually um impacting your susceptibility towards gambling um addiction, right? Because you're kind of already on that, like. reward like fear kind of path that comes with addiction and then and then you layer on kind of the the habits that started around scratch tickets early on and then we'll change the change the scratch tickets into more scratch tickets and into alcohol and like splitting that that out right and it's that kind of a that's kind of that brain part of addiction that we know really well that there's so much similarity. And I think that people don't talk about it enough that there's lots of there's lots of kinds of addictions out there, right? It's not just substances and they can be just as powerful, right? They share a you know this probably better than than I do from all the work that you've done to get to where you are today, right? But there is that neurobiological kind of overlap. It looks very similar to addiction because we know it's a brain disease, right? We know that um that that that it impacts our reward pathways. And so um it just I I think that that's a really I I appreciate you sharing that um and sharing kind of what it was like to go through that path with Jesse because I I wonder if they're a bit linked there um in some ways. And I wonder if you have you guys have any thoughts about that.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 23:15

Yeah I think you brought out my I think you brought out my addiction. I wasn't I don't know that I would have ever been you know or if it would have taken me longer to get into gambling if I hadn't already known what an addictive lifestyle looked like. So I wonder if that you know well like we would go to the what I went to the I went to Mohegan for my 21st and then because I went for my 21st Mohegan sent me a free night. So for his 21st two months later we went to Mohegan and we got wasted and went into the slots and that was like at that picture of you in the parking lot like he's just like oh like you can see it on his face and the pictures are awful. It's just oh you know it's just I think that that might have been like where it really started.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Just the normalization of high risk situations like you know normal drinking whatever that looks like you know for someone without an alcohol use disorder uh your 21st birthday maybe you go out and you have a drink or maybe you you don't even do it on your birthday maybe you you know have a glass of wine with dinner if that's your family tradition and I remember before Mohegan we went to Good Times in Summerville shout out good times no longer there and I had two pitchers of beer for my first legal drink and got sick on the way to Mohegan and had a pull over. Yep. So there was there was just this normalization of like oh it's what you do when you're 21 but is it really is it you know no it's not it's not so you know from my perspective of course like I I think that that you know they were linked they were related it was so codependent it was so unhealthy it was so just just desperate is the word that comes to mind for me where you know we had each other and we couldn't see past each other. So we just trauma bonded together and did the best we could with what we had and we had like negative coping skills.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

So it looked like gambling and alcohol and drugs and it yeah I think back now like how did we survive some of these situations? Are you kidding me? I I think back now like how like I even joke with my friends like you know we talk about the things we used to do and it's like how are we even alive right now like I I don't get it you know like the times that he he would drive and under the influence and that's like how did we not die? You know it just some obviously God was our our God God was watching over us but like you know geez I just I think of my I think if my kids ever just like what is wrong with you slap out of it come on that's not normal that's not normal.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

You know it's just and maybe at some point yeah we can touch on how we talk to our kids about addiction even a young age but yeah um yeah to to summarize that certainly I I agree Lisa that you know having active addiction on both sides of a relationship no matter what yeah very toxic and no matter what type of addiction substances process addiction you name it uh certainly enabling each other just contributes to a overall negative outcome.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

But that's really you know it it just speaks a little bit more to kind of the emotional distress that drives our behavior right like we know that like that and the intensity with which our first relationship is right that is that is just true for everyone right I'm a mom of teenagers like I know what that sounds like right and like the the intensity of that kind of first relationship it feels bigger than anything in the in the whole world. And then you start to add in a bit more of that roller coaster and you described real really well that part of why you stayed was so that he would be okay. Right. And that's that's a lot for our brains to take on at a young age. It's a lot for us to manage. It's a lot for any of us to manage right when we're supporting a loved one and then anything that will make you feel better in the moment right and whether that's behaviors that like you know you said you would never do to support your loved one right or behaviors like like things like getting more scratch tickets or whatever that might be right like and and we all have those kinds of responses because that's just how the things that happen to us impact our behavior right that's just that's what happens and um so again just you know inserting some more self-compassion in the room for that right um but I also want to say too and because I'd love to get to kind of that kind of recovery process because yes a lot of emotional distress and things um a lot of wounding and things happen in the context of relationship that harm us but really the only way to heal is also in the context of relationship. And it seems like that is why you are both sitting here right now because together you moved through that healing process. Right. Um so I I'd love for you both to talk about kind of what that experience of having the other one there um for your own the recovery journey your own healing has been like um so I would say that when I first discovered GA, I I believe he was actually in jail um because I got caught I got caught by family stealing for money for scratch tickets.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

And I came clean. It was a very emotional situation um it was the first time like I admitted I had a problem. I remember my mom took me to a meeting um and yeah I discovered a really great group of people it was back when I was living out um in Medford and um I met a really great group of people that supported me and and helped me through um got through my first year. It was a big deal I had some family come to my my year um meeting and you know but I don't think I think I maybe made it two years and then fell off again because I'm pretty sure it was me trying to get money to help us do stuff. It was so easy to jump back in and all I had to do was you know hit $100 once and that was like click and I was back at it again. You know, obviously that that didn't happen often. But I will say when he went to Spectrum and started working through his very early recovery um I I started kind of like paying attention and seeing what he was doing. And not even with GA I was just like seeing him change and realizing okay these things are these are good things like I can you know I can do this. I can you know like you said we're play off of each other. Well now that things were starting to go good for him it was kind of like clicking in my mind that you know things would what could go could be good. We did have to split up there a little bit for six months because his sponsor his first sponsor was like you need to work on yourself. You need to end it I was pissed I was like are you kidding me all the support I've given him I've got helped get him in the spectrum and been there for him and this guy's telling you to like walk away from me and take a few months off and try you know granted he did come back like we didn't get back together obviously have been together ever since but um I just saw the change I he you know he found AA he found God probably for the first time fully in his life I mean grew up in church but like and and found a church family and took a while for him to convince me to go to church and in church there were people in recovery it was a recovery church. I like to say it's a recovery church there's a lot of people in recovery there because people from the church would go to spectrum and and sing and pray and you know talk with the residents. And so I think that you know a lot I in an IG I think three times I think this is my third time. I have no plans of leaving this time things are a lot different once you have a family it's it kind of puts more things into perspective. So I really wouldn't ruin that for anything. It was easier to for me it was easier to relapse when I was single or just dating like it children play a huge factor in decision making for me personally. But I think the change in Jesse motivated me to make better decisions because this is like the walking miracle right here.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

And that just kind of like I say that all the time to people it's a walking miracle this is just you know you don't even I I've told people at work about what it used to be like and they're like no he's the nicest guy what are you talking about none of them believe like anything that I say about the past version of him.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

So I think the change in you helped motivate a change in me because I'm not although he's very much involved with AA and and and gives his time in AA with the with volunteering and whatnot I'm not anywhere near involved in GA that way. I do jump on a Zoom meeting and listen when I feel I need it. It is a great program for those struggling um but I I know well enough to jump on and listen to a meeting if I feel like I'm I'm struggling. But I also have been to AA meetings with him and have listened in on those and I feel like I'm living in an AA household so I just it's like I don't know it's helpful. It's helpful having it's helpful helpful being married to Mr. AA here.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

He's knowledgeable okay from my perspective okay um I have to think back to being in Spectrum and my clinician inviting Laurel in for a family session. So shout out Jessica Krot wherever you are I've been trying to get a hold of you for 16 years. Love to talk to you and say thank you. If you want to come on come on um but I don't know if you remember that down in the basement of the old RP in those little closet yeah little closet uh offices uh she invited I forget all how it happened but we were sitting in there talking about relationships and recovery and yeah that was around the time where my sponsor at the time was like well why don't you just focus on you and um you know that was really the first time that we that I thought about like a long-term future in recovery in a relationship. And it was overwhelming but it was it was a little bit hopeful that it was possible because here we are talking to somebody who you know is knowledgeable in this and and you know I I don't think we had been in counseling prior to that. We've been in counseling since uh both individual and couples counseling for years and I I certainly credit that with you know helping change those what we know today as maladaptive coping skills but back then just whatever you know we had to do to get by um and being on the other side of supporting somebody else in recovery like um I don't know where you came up with it but you called scratch tickets cardboard crack yeah and uh Gio told me about it I think there's much and uh it just helps me put into perspective today like I have friends that can't drink can't use drugs and can't gamble and it normalizes it for me because I'm like oh yeah that's that's my wife too like she doesn't you know she can drink in safety she doesn't do drugs but yeah gambling's a problem too so it it helped open my eyes to like other addictions besides what I was going through.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

So what has it been like for you to support Laurel in that process?

SPEAKER_02 35:21

Um interesting because there were times like she had said where you know she had fell off and you know as somebody in recovery I'd find scratch tickets somewhere you can't hide it from them. And like being real I'd get pissed you know what the hell? Rightfully so rightfully so and not that like I compare one's better one's worse or whatnot but you know then I think of like I'd be a hypocrite if I really came down on Laura like what are you doing? Can't you understand? Don't you know better blah blah blah it's like I just all those words would bounce off her and come back onto me. So it it really comes down to compassion and and working toward a solution together. So you know whether that's the you know online GA or you know something we haven't brought up here yet but like we're both very involved in church family and and have been for the majority of of our recovery and our marriage together like that recovery church that came into spectrum you know that guy ended up marrying us like he was the pastor our wedding and and we still hang out and and shout out vineyard um just like lifelong relationships right and then you know we we move around a bunch and and we try to find something that fits and we do and you know through just the trials and tribulations life you know we end up in out in central mass and and uh I think what did you say it was like five years ago last week six years ago six years ago I made the post on Facebook asking for a list of local churches yeah just like hey you know new to the area and uh chair city church and Gardner Mass um just like a welcoming loving community you know no judgment just you know I I say all the time like you know 12-step recovery often happens in churches just for the practical reason that it's like cheap rent and if you rented a a hall at like the Eagles or you know Knights at Columbus for a hundred people once a week it'd cost you a lot more um but you know my experience is any any type of recovery mutual aid meeting dovetails into what whatever I hear in church basements I also hear on Sunday morning in in church and it it plays off of each other and and um you know maybe a a future guest certainly that can um speak more to that later is um our current pastor who is spearheading a Christian 12-step recovery group um that's soon to be launched so you know just and a counseling center um so just yeah lots of connection like we know the opposite of addiction is connection and you know I I think we can sit here and safely say that you know connection to other people whether it be in recovery whether it be you know in shared spiritual beliefs or even like you know I think your friend that you worked with years ago with Panera Bre or you know Laurel makes friends with people that she works with and they become lifelong friends. Like just invited to family functions like haven't worked with either of the Amandas in what 10 years and yeah but we still talk and like you know just to to you know connect and you were in Amanda's wedding and you know um yeah just connecting with people and and doing life together. I mean that's that's really where I I think is you know the difference for us from two people who are so isolated and and you know selfish and certainly you know I hear Lisa's voice in my mind talking about compassion. But you know shame and guilt, right? Two people that I know I can just speak for me were just polluted with shame and guilt and feeling less than and then finding a solution and you know wanting to yeah help make friends and and also do life together. So I don't know if that answered the question.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Yeah I love that you talk about like that there's that that together right that it's really like it gets really isolating when you're going through addiction in early recovery and that it sounds like you both really do a good job of having a lot of others right separate from each other that are supporting. And I think you know it makes me think of um Esther Perel. I don't know if you know her Jesse she's a great clinician um you know trained right here in Massachusetts um but she um describes really well in relationship the fact that you know in this individualistic society we get really like isolated and think that like the person that we marry has to be everything to us and that what we've lost that concept of like we need lots of people right we need the village like we need the you know it can't just be that one person and that burden is too big. And you know it makes me think a bit about how um you you probably have gotten this far together because you're taking care of each other together, but also you're taking care of yourselves separately with your own village. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

What are you doing today? What are we doing today?

SPEAKER_04 40:40

What I go on to the upward yeah I'm flying to the I'm flying to Virginia this afternoon.

SPEAKER_03 40:46

Why?

SPEAKER_04 40:47

Um what because of my what because my parents yeah my parents are flying me to Virginia to join in on my father's um US Navy reunion that they do every year. But this year is special because we get to go on the actual ship that my dad was on in the 70s. So that is is in but I'm going alone. So Jesse's staying home with the children and I this is something I'm doing on my own and I said to him this morning when was the last time that I went on like a little mini vacation with just my parents and my and my brother I don't know but it's gonna be really cool like spending time just with them um and getting that time together and seeing um some of their friends that I haven't seen in a really long time too you know so it's things you get to do today that you know to your point of having your others.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Right. And even though they're family and and we're all you know very very close um we spend a lot of time together but also having that dedicated time to them.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

So yeah um yeah and that brings me to kind of one of the questions that I have have for you both um you know because I know Jesse and I know how much he does. I know how much he does at work I know he does this podcast I know he sponsors a lot of folks I know he's super engaged in his recovery community. That takes a lot of time so how do you balance that you've got three little ones right just Jesse's on his millionth degree as we've already discussed right like that's all of those things that are really wonderful but they take a lot of time and balancing the uh the ability for each other to do those kinds of things while taking care of three small kids how do you how do you balance that?

SPEAKER_04 42:34

It's a lot. I'm very blessed that I was able to be a stay at home mom. I started staying home two months before our first daughter was born and that was almost that was 10 years, well, 10 years ago this month when I was able to stay home. I only recently in the last like few years went back to work part-time um but I'm also I'm very blessed that my parents live so close just a few towns over so I have kind of like my built-in babysitters um it to be able to watch the kids so that we can both get our work done and and what we need to get done. But we also we know when we haven't spent enough time just us together, we can feel it. We can know we start to get frustrated and we know we have to pause and say, okay, we need to plan something we need to you know plan some time just us or we need to like suck up the energy to stay up late at night and watch a show together or just talk or whatever because it's like by the end most of most days by the end of the day we're both like okay we're tired like kids are I'm going to bed like that's it you just I'm like I feel like an old person I just want to go to bed. Um like recently we we just went out to dinner just the two of us you know I I said to my mom I we need a date night it's important we need to go out and she's like yeah absolutely it had been too long um you know we make time to go out on double dates with our friends you know but we also at the same time make sure that We both take individual time either if we're by ourselves or with friends. Like I just planned to go out in a few weeks with some of my girlfriends for my birthday just to go out for dinner just to hang out. I I don't do that very often, but it's needed. Um you know, he's got set nights, certain nights during the week that he will go to a meeting and then hang out with some of his friends after. And I'm fully support, like, go, you need that time with your friends. It refreshes him because that means in a good mood, and it's just like he needs that. Um we make time to do things as a family too. You know, we just talked about going to a a concert with um the kids, you know, a Christian concert that we know that they'll enjoy and that we can all enjoy together. Um it's you know, life does get crazy. Three kids is a lot. It wouldn't change it for anything, but it's a lot. Um and we just try we try to involve them in as much as we can. Um and just be intentional about the time that we spend together. Um, the intentional, the word intentional. Um you know, we try not to work on the weekends. That there is that rare times where like I may have to work or he may have to do something, but we try to keep our weekends free for the most part. Um yeah. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

And you know, long ago, for me at least, I learned that balance is a fallacy, meaning that I'm never gonna find perfect balance, different seasons of life. You know, I'm focused on different things. Certainly, yeah, you know, I I wouldn't I wouldn't have be able been able to pursue educational goals or career goals had Laurel not made the decision to stay at home and you know be the primary caretaker of the children during the day. Um, and that was a lot in different seasons. And, you know, I remember like, you know, not too long ago in grad school, one summer we were going to Hershey Park in Pennsylvania, and I had a group project do. And I had all my group members really upset with me because I refused to work on that project while we were on vacation. I said, I'll see you when we get back. And the project was fine and it all worked out, but you know, just having that um flexibility where you know different seasons of life focus on on different things. Lately, it's been this Christian 12-step recovery group, um, and really getting that off the ground. And, you know, then the next thing will be the next thing, and you know, what but just the yeah, flexibility, I guess. And um to uh just a practical on a practical note, if it's not in the calendar, it's not happening. So sharing a calendar with each other and putting it in there.

SPEAKER_04 46:49

If we forget to have something to the calendar, oh I have this, it's not in the calendar. Well, it's happening. It's I forgot to put it in. We've had that happen recently where we both forgot to update the calendar.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

But for the most part, you know, uh knowing each other's like, you know, schedules or routines, or like she said, certain nights or certain things.

SPEAKER_04 47:06

Um also know when to say no. Yeah, that's something we're working on. And I've told him because he is a people pleaser, I'm a people pleaser. When someone asks you if you can do something, you need to know when to say no. It's okay. You're not gonna like you can't sit there and think that you're gonna hurt someone's feelings if you say no, you can't help. But you need to know when to just like take a step back and be like, you know, how how full is my plate, how full is my cup already? Can I really squeeze in one other thing? No, you need to know when to say, you know, I can't today, maybe another time, but just not today, you know, because it some days you are so we're so full of things to do, and you know, you gotta be able to step back and say, I really don't need to do that right now. I'd love to help, but yeah, I can't. There's other people that can help.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

The knowledge that no is a complete sentence.

SPEAKER_04 47:51

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

That I don't need to, we don't need to explain why just it is what it is. There's only a finite amount of hours in the day. And you know, as much as we are talking about community or spending time together and doing life together, you know, I I look forward to the one or two nights a week where I come home from work and I don't leave the house till the next day, and we just hang. And it can be, you know, something intentional, it could be something like a big project, or it could be just chilling out, watching a movie.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Right. So finding that ebb and flow of of the balance depending on what season of life we're in has been helpful.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

And it's a good lesson that too many of us in helping professions don't listen to. We don't always practice what we preach, right? And so as a therapist, as a sponsor, as all of the hats that you wear, right? That um, you know, I'm sure you tell people all the time to do this, right? And it's it's practicing it yourself. No, and sometimes disappointing someone.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

Yeah, and and just transparently, I feel a little guilty right now, not practicing what I preach. Uh, I'm not working today. This is the day off because I'm bringing her to the airport, but I just worked out that you know I'm like, oh, we can do this in the day.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

But um, that didn't come up in the emails when we were scheduling that.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

I I talk about intentional time. I uh felt very uh led to do this together in the same room. I've never done one together um, you know, since I've uh jumped on co-hosting with you. So um, you know, it worked out. We knew that we were gonna do this and then you know, take her to the airport, and then you know, the rest of the weekend is dedicated to me and the kids and her with her family.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

A fun parent over here with the list of things he's gonna do. These kids are gonna be I'm gonna come home and they're gonna be like, Daddy did this, this, this, this is okay. I think scheduled, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

So one last thing for me to worry about. Yeah, they're fine.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

They're fine.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Is there anything that you both wanted to get to that we didn't talk about today?

SPEAKER_02 49:57

Uh actually, just speaking of children, you know, our kids are are young, all under 10. Um almost, but still under 10 for a few more months. So, you know, having age-appropriate conversations with children about recovery and about um addiction and about, you know, just the way that we've come on here and talked about living our lives, you know, for a long time. I would tell our kids that, you know, daddy goes to meetings to talk to his friends about God. And that's where I left it. And then recently, actually this year, at a uh anniversary recovery event, um, we were all sitting around eating there and um at the dinner, and you know, we just felt like it was time to be like, you know, daddy's an alcoholic and a drug addict in recovery, and and that's what this looks like. And and they in their own way, yeah, you know, were able to process that a little bit more and you know, when appropriate, bringing the kids to a recovery event, you know, bringing the kids, whether it be a meeting or, you know, uh even just hanging out in the backyard with some people in recovery having a barbecue. We do that all the time.

SPEAKER_04 51:08

My favorite get-togethers are the cookouts that we have with the people in recovery. I love all my friends, but there's something special to be said about a you know, a backyard full of just people who have made the right choice and are just trying to live their best life. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

It's an energy there. I say it's podcast about a million times. Jesse's probably real familiar with it, right? I myself am not in recovery, but there is uh uh an energy that individuals in recovery give off. And it's and it's because of the work that it takes to get there, right? And the work that you have to do internally. That I say all the time that the rest of us don't necessarily have to look at that stuff in order to survive. And folks in long-term recovery have to look at it every day in order to survive, and it gives off um a very different energy. So that makes a lot of sense that those barbecues are one of your favorite times because it's a lot of concentrated, wonderful recovery energy. Same feeling you get when you walk into a meeting, same feeling you get when you walk into a peer recovery center, right? For sure. Like you get that same feeling. I've never left one of our peer recovery support centers in a bad mood.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Likewise, likewise. And I I've said on here before, and I'll say it again, that like, you know, when I was a resident at Spectrum RP and going to the recovery connection in Marlboro, it was like, it was a big deal because of that energy, because of that, like, you know, we could have just went there and played ping pong and hang out, but there was there was something special about it. Um, so I could go on and on. But is there anything else that you um wanted to say that we didn't?

SPEAKER_04 52:45

No, no, I think we think we covered. And like you said, we could talk for ages and just go on and on, like a long goodbye, you know, like to say. Or so Jesse, land the plane.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

Just talk, socks, socks.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Yeah. Well, this has been a real trip for me. I'm sure it has been for everybody listening with so much appreciation for you, Jesse, as my co-host of all these years, and um, especially to you, Laurel, for coming on and sharing, you know, more of your story. And I think we need more of these kind of bigger vulnerable stories about how addiction and recovery doesn't just impact the person. We spend a lot of time with a lot of people in recovery, and I think it's really uh important to spread that lens just a bit more because nobody's doing this alone.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

Exactly. Exactly. So thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for sharing. And this has been a special one for sure. So all right.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Thanks everybody for listening. This has been so fantastic. We'll be back with another episode in August, and we are prepping and getting ready for our big month of the year, which is September Recovery Month, where we will come back with weekly podcasts. Uh, so please, you know, do all the things, like, subscribe so you don't miss anything. But thank you so much for being here with us. Bye bye.